xRobot: A First Look at the ZFF v2 PWM Videos

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - I don't believe that the shunt is necessarily wrong.It is a professionally calibrated device, albeit quite a few years ago.I believe my readings are being affected by the higher frequency that this PWM runs at over the previous one. 5KHZ as opposed to 100Hz

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - I will check into that, thank you.I just think that ie backed out the current limiting on my unit and did not update the setup instructions to match.

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Now your just being polite. It has very poor camera work for sure. :)

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Well, I am not expecting to have any significant effect on efficiency.My goal is high gas output on cold start and use current limiting to keep it from getting out of control.I can probably do that test you suggest. It is probably better that I configure my cell without the PWM installed anyway just so I can get the cold start squared away.

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Thank you.I am trying for high output cold start of the cell and use the PWM to prevent the current draw from getting away from me.

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - I will probably need to do something like this once the cell is finally installed in the car.Those tanks you see are only intended for the work bench. Those won't be going into any vehicle.

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - That was what was disappointing me about the 30 amp circuit breaker. I would have expected it to trip shortly after it reached 30 amps.So far it has not tripped.

jimodrap Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - i am no expert but why not read the amps going into the pwm wile they are still true dc(almost the power supply)that might be the problum with the amp readings are you reading in d/c or a/cmode?

najman100 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - each circuit breaker has a tolerance thats why it did no pop

MarkMBravura Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Naw, just being honest. Despite the camera quality, the fact that you're on the front line of HHO sharing your data is awesome - keep up the great work!

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - The circuit will be pulsing no matter where you measure it whenever the PWM is running.However, I am currently measuring on the opposite side of the cell (positive power lead) from the PWM (inline with the negative power lead) to help minimize pulse noise interference with the readings.On the clamp on meter, I am reading on the 40 amp DC scale with "Zero" set.The shunt is a 30 amp 50 millivolt shunt and I am reading its output voltage on the 300mV DC scale on the Fluke meter.

jimodrap Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - the circuit will pulse between the pwm and the battery?

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - It has to because when the PWM opens the circuit, all current also stops in any other part of the entire circuit at the same time.That is why I had to add the battery in parallel with the power supply to help keep the pulses from interfering with the voltage regulation in the power supply itself.Having the battery in parallel with the power supply give the sharp edges generated by the PWM a place to come and go.Not quite as effective as a large capacitor, but its the same basic principle.

john29302 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - neato torpedo it controls the current...and should also measure the efficiency by measuring the current draw feeding that zff thingee. i control current with my cell design, and deficciency makes hho...that is the object...efficiency, not control. you need all the bubbles you can get the car to put out, not control it. i use 7 cells and add a cell if it gets hot. but it never does. the cause for heat is leakage, not some cute project like pwm. boyce designs the triple beat/mix freak res champ

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - I appreciate your opinion. Thank you for your opinion.My trips are short. I need a lot of HHO at startup.The intent here is to run an efficient cell design with excessively strong electrolyte solution to achieve full HHO gas output at cold start.The purpose of automatic "Current Limiting" in this instance is to keep current draw at a specific level that is still safe after the cell gets hot.Your cell design controls current draw, but at the expense of reduced cold start output.

superbee1970 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Hi Luther,Great vid, great CONTENT, not visual QUALITY, as you stated! ha...OK, SO, in this vid, at:1. 14.43 Volts, 2. 40 Amps, and what I saw from your vid 3. .5 Liters in 13 seconds?This calculates out to 4.03 MMW is this correct? If not, please correct.I know your cell was more efficient than this w/o the pwm when you were using brute force DC. I know you're just now settin this up as well.Can't wait to see if your efficiency increases or not.Superbee1970

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - When I said "first look" I wasn't kidding. :) I had only fired it one time before the video for about 5 minutes.I would not rate the MMW based on what you saw in this video. (that is why I did not mention it. :))Most of "this" video is just me feeling my way around trying to figure out how everything should work and play together.In the later ZFF PWM videos I have a lot of issues worked out which puts me closer to considering doing the 'qualified' MMW tests.

Energermany Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Very clean working.Its informative to watch your videos, no time wasted :o)

superbee1970 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - Hi Luther,That's what I figured, however, is nice to know the MMW of EVERY RUN, so you know where you are! PLUS, ya just MIGHT stumble onto something by accident, as I'm VERY sure you've heard of happenin to other experimenters, right? ;)OK, so, approx 4 MMW OUTA THE BOX, ya got my initial MMW beat even at THAT for now anyways, I'm only at a BEST of 3.3 MMW currently w/ my lil ruler cell...Keep it up man! We're ALL WATCHIN what you're doin!Superbee1970

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - This turned out to be a loose wire for the negative power return to the PCB.I believe it came apart during shipping.

hickstim Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - I've been watching you for a while now. Good job.. When do you plan on putting this new EBN cell on your vehicle and perform a fuel economy test? I can't wait to find out. I'm really thinking about ordering one, and should I opt for the larger cell. I'll be putting it on a 1/2 ton truck.

ehnriko Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - No, you're not wasting anyones time... Is the battery a buffer?... to keep the the DCV straight before ZFF's PWM? Nice!. :-)

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - I am using it like a capacitor.On my previous power supply and with the smaller 30amp/100Hz PWM, the noise coming back from the PWM was interfering with the voltage regulation on th power supply.The battery was added back then in parallel to help keep the noise off of the power supply and allow the voltage regulation to stay closer to 13.8VDC.It doesn't look like this newer power supply is affected by that issue, but then again, the ZFF PWM is running at 5KHz instead of 100Hz.

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - My confidence level that I will get a significant increase of MPG is not all that great.I have a lot of things running against me.5.7 Liter high performance V8 that required 92 octane just to keep from knocking.This car only runs very short runs (less than 2 or 3 miles per day)MPG now is 0nly 10.5 when it used to get 16.5 city/24.5 Hwy when it was new.It would be nice if I could get it back to at least 16.5 MPG.

lutherp40 Says:

Nov 19, 2008 - part 2As for getting a larger cell....I am beginning to think that a of of us experimenters are looking at this HHO thing the wrong way. ("maybe")There might be a possibility that we are injecting too much "pure" HHO gas.One of the things I would like to explore is to see if I can come up with a procedure or process for determining how much HHO gas any given engine really wants to see to gain an improvement.Generic enough so that anyone can follow it with their own car or truck.